Episode transcript:

Matt:
So one thing that I’d like to dig in deeper on is kind of a bigger picture. What’s Alper’s bigger picture on the human tendency to resist. So, you know, we we’ve we talked in the podcast today in the recording today about was about anticipating points of resistance when you are preparing a presentation, that’s a pretty specific point of view or a pretty, pretty specific perspective.

Matt:
Let’s get a bigger picture on it. What do you think about Okay, yeah, the general human tendency to resist. What are your thoughts on that?

Alper:
Well, first of all, I think I’m a very resisting person. Okay. Resisting as in my initial response to any proposition thrown in my at my way is, okay, first of all, do you have the data to back that up? Mm hmm. Do you have proof? Even if you come up with proof, I my final say would be, I’m going to think about this.

Alper:
Mm hmm. And if you don’t give me the space to think about it and come up with my own internal debate, I’m going to declare you persona non grata, and I will want you out of my face.

Matt:
Okay. Okay.

Alper:
So, on a personal level, I think it’s very it’s it’s it’s a it’s a strong reflex to any attempt in persuading or convincing. But I’m also curious about your point of view. Do you remember the last time you were persuaded or convinced into doing something that you would normally not consider doing?

Matt:
Yeah. So before we get into into my perspectives on it or my opinions on it, I have a follow up question for you. Okay. So in in presentations, we’re often presentation and especially presentation training is often about the reduction of personal distance. You know, for example, make lots of eye contact with your audience, walk out, try to reduce the physical distance, try to and, and a lot of presentation training is the study of the techniques of persuasion, how to persuade people to push the green button instead of the red button.

Matt:
Or is the green button better than the purple button or or is does this wording, is this wording more persuasive than the next piece of wording and should use this kind of wording or that kind of word? And should you put this on the button or not, Do you think what’s your what’s your personal opinion? Do you think this is hurting the the goal of presentation training, which is to learn how to convey your ideas well to people?

Matt:
What are your thoughts on that?

Alper:
I think I have a lot of thoughts on that. Mm hmm. And it’s you’re absolutely right to point out that most of the most of to not literature, but most of the content out there is about how to persuade, how to convince. Mm hmm. It’s it’s immediately reminds me that just. I mean, it’s creates a sensation in me that just because something is widely talked, talked about or even believed, it doesn’t make it doesn’t make it accurate or right.

Alper:
I mean, think about a time in the world where we used to think that all the earth was flat. Mm hmm. I mean, that’s that that may sound like a far faced argument, but when you think about it, or at least what I think about it, it’s actually one of the reasons behind questioning everything, including your point of view, your proposition, not as much, but as a presenter that you’re throwing my way and also holding a mirror to myself and analyzing my point of view and my proposition.

Alper:
By the way, I’m also I’m also holding committed to this proposition that I’m making during this recording about not persuading people about not trying to convince them and using resistance from the audience as a good thing. Okay. Let’s let’s try to punch holes in that, too, because this is my proposition. It’s it doesn’t mean that it’s correct outside my my own brain.

Alper:
Outside my own mind. Mm hmm. A it’s something that I feel more strongly towards. But of course, it’s not. It’s not it’s not carved in stone that this is how it should be. And everybody should stop persuading people, stop trying to persuade people and, you know, have conversations with them. It’s just one point of view which happens to resonate with me more as I as and when I look at my experiences, it has start to serving me much better than trying to deal with potential resistance in the first place and anticipate them and trying to remove them.

Matt:
Again, this is I’m going to bring up Blair. And again, this is kind of the Blair ends day for me. So Blair ends that. He talks about the importance of being present and not giving a presentation or presentation or conversations, not presentations. And if you’re at a party and you’re having a conversation with somebody, keep in mind that a lot of presentation training is about the reduction of personal distance, the manipulation of another’s activity.

Matt:
This is not how you act at a party.

Alper:
A reduction of it, or using using.

Matt:
The use of just a minister clarifying. So the reduction of personal space and the manipulation of another’s decision also or the ability to manipulate another’s decision. This is what a lot of our plantation training seems to be based on. And this is not how a normal person acts. If you’re in a hopefully not.

Alper:
They do, actually. That’s that’s why they’re manipulative people.

Matt:
True. But the thing is, if you’re at a party and somebody acts like this, you just you walk away from them and you talk to somebody else. Mm hmm. I guess the equivalent of doing that, if you’re in a presentation, is to take out your phone and check Facebook or scroll through Instagram or something like that. But this is not the way that normal humans act.

Matt:
You know, if you’re at a party and somebody and you put out an idea and somebody says, that’s an interesting idea, but I need some time to think about it, you don’t say, Hopefully not. You don’t say no. You can’t think about it. You have to say yes or no right now.

Alper:
Yes.

Matt:
But in a lot of presentation training, there’s pressure to teach people how to do that. Maybe not to say that outright, but to do that anyway.

Alper:
Well, full disclaimer. I have been guilty of that to be in the past, guilty of a trying to do that and be trying to teach people how to do that. Okay. So I cannot say that I cannot say that I was never part of this thing, that now I’m telling that is not the right way, because I used to I used to practice and preach that, too.

Matt:
Mm hmm. True. Yeah, I used to preach it, too. Yeah. Another thing that I was thinking about on this on this topic, this topic of resistance, I was thinking about it this morning, and I was thinking about dogs. And when you run into a stray dog on the street, if the. I was thinking, okay, what does a stray dog do one?

Matt:
Or what does a dog do? Not not a stray dog, but just dogs in general. What does a dog do? And I was thinking, okay, well, if a dog is chasing you and you turn and run, the dog will chase you harder. The fact the dog is chasing harder doesn’t make you think, Oh, this is a nice dog.

Matt:
I want to turn around and and look at it some more. And also, if a dog is guarding its territory and you run towards the dog or threaten the dog, the dog might get scared. It might be a good tactic if you’re out there running. But still, the dog is going to dig in and defend his territory a little bit harder now that you’re acting threatening.

Matt:
So that’s kind of an example of of a dog of a dog of resistance from dogs. And I guess I guess people act the same way.

Alper:
I guess so too. Yeah, but what not But, but and when you think about it, I don’t think it’s the is the message out there these days. But you and I are old enough to remember the days of, you know, just, just get your foot in the door and see how it goes and maybe the rest will follow.

Alper:
Yeah. In my personal point of view, which is completely open for debate and which is which can complete to be inaccurate, it is one of the worst sales advice or communications advice that I have ever heard in my life. Just gimme, gimme, gimme 2 minutes. Give me 2 minutes. Just just let me show you. Look at my phone.

Alper:
Let me show you that the. Are you kidding? Oh, and the more you try to do that, what’s going to happen? Are you eventually going to end up saying, okay, you know what, I’ll give it 2 minutes. Yeah, well, the chances of that happening are not zero. It’s not 0%. But I think I think you will you will declare me persona non grata pretty quickly if I, if I pull that on you.

Matt:
Yeah. If you pull that on me or somebody pulled that on me, I might grudgingly give them the 2 minutes, you know, not I’m not going to be happy about it. I’m going to be tapping my foot and looking at my watch and thinking, when is this person to go? Yeah. And that’s totally not the situation that you want to or that’s totally not the environment you are going to be successful in sales.

Alper:
AT Yeah. Is there any chance left of mutual exploring a common ground or, you know, doing something in in the way that the other person is asking you to do.

Matt:
Know why.

Alper:
Something.

Matt:
Come to think of it, if if you think that mutual ground can be found in 2 minutes even. Never mind the fact that this person is already resisting you when you finally push your way through the door, when you finally sit down, this person is thinking, okay, you’ve got 2 minutes and you’ve got to get out of here.

Matt:
I wish this wasn’t even happening. Never mind that if this person loved you already, and if you think that common ground can be found in 2 minutes, it’s highly unlikely that any common ground can be found in 2 minutes. You probably have an unrealistic expectation.

Alper:
Yeah.

Matt:
All right. So. So let’s let’s wrap it up there and I’ve got to go. I don’t.

Alper:
Think I, I, I feel I have so much more to talk about, but I’ll let you go. But we’ll we’ll keep this for another episode.